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	<title>Comments on: Morality in the DC Universe</title>
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	<pubDate>Thu, 17 May 2012 15:10:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.doomkopf.com/2010/03/18/morality-in-the-dc-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-592352</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Mar 2010 18:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.doomkopf.com/?p=4097#comment-592352</guid>
		<description>All valid points.  It didn't really bother me, to be honest - in Owlman's case, it seemed totally appropriate.  :cool:

I like the alternate dialogue for Johnny Quick, though - it's always nice to see a villian redeem himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All valid points.  It didn&#8217;t really bother me, to be honest - in Owlman&#8217;s case, it seemed totally appropriate.  <img src='http://www.doomkopf.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif' alt=':cool:' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I like the alternate dialogue for Johnny Quick, though - it&#8217;s always nice to see a villian redeem himself.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Doom</title>
		<link>http://www.doomkopf.com/2010/03/18/morality-in-the-dc-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-591695</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Doom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 05:07:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.doomkopf.com/?p=4097#comment-591695</guid>
		<description>Also, for what it's worth, we weren't the only ones who thought Batman killed people. When I finished watching this awful movie, I looked at its IMDB score and saw that it was pretty high. One of the &lt;a href="http://hagiblog.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/justice-league-crisis-on-two-earths-film-reel-reviews/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow"&gt;external reviews&lt;/a&gt; they linked to had this to say:
&lt;blockquote&gt;...this one has one of the more badass Batman moments I can recall. He actually knowingly kills two of the bad guys. That’s the kind of Batman I want to see.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, for what it&#8217;s worth, we weren&#8217;t the only ones who thought Batman killed people. When I finished watching this awful movie, I looked at its IMDB score and saw that it was pretty high. One of the <a href="http://hagiblog.wordpress.com/2010/02/17/justice-league-crisis-on-two-earths-film-reel-reviews/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">external reviews</a> they linked to had this to say:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;this one has one of the more badass Batman moments I can recall. He actually knowingly kills two of the bad guys. That’s the kind of Batman I want to see.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Jim Doom</title>
		<link>http://www.doomkopf.com/2010/03/18/morality-in-the-dc-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-591693</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Doom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Mar 2010 04:58:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.doomkopf.com/?p=4097#comment-591693</guid>
		<description>Didn't Batman physically restrain Owlman to the bomb? He could've just stranded him in limbo, but he chose to make him explode. I'm still going to mark that in the "Kill" category. 

And with all due respect, I feel like you're kind of grasping at straws to explain away Batman's killing of Johnny Quick. One could very easily accomplish the same thing, stay true to the characters and introduce no ethical dilemma. Off the top of my head:

BATMAN: The only way we can follow Owlman is if we can find a way to create vibrations at 80 zillion jiggywobbles --
FLASH: I can vibrate at 80 zillion jiggywobbles!
BATMAN: No, I can't let you do that. Moving that fast -- even for just a few minutes -- could kill you, Flash. 
FLASH: But Batman, I --
BATMAN: We'll find another way.
JOHNNY QUICK: I'll do it.
FLASH: But you heard Batman -- it'll kill you!
JOHNNY QUICK: No -- it *could* kill me. 

And then Johnny Quick could give a little speech about finally doing something to help someone, blah blah. He could even throw in a cocky (but knowing) dig at the Flash about doing a better job too. Look at that -- no ethical problems, kept Batman as the somewhat patronizing know-it-all, kept Flash earnest and compassionate, and redeemed Johnny Quick. It's a completely uncomplicated scenario that took me all of five seconds of thinking.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Didn&#8217;t Batman physically restrain Owlman to the bomb? He could&#8217;ve just stranded him in limbo, but he chose to make him explode. I&#8217;m still going to mark that in the &#8220;Kill&#8221; category. </p>
<p>And with all due respect, I feel like you&#8217;re kind of grasping at straws to explain away Batman&#8217;s killing of Johnny Quick. One could very easily accomplish the same thing, stay true to the characters and introduce no ethical dilemma. Off the top of my head:</p>
<p>BATMAN: The only way we can follow Owlman is if we can find a way to create vibrations at 80 zillion jiggywobbles &#8211;<br />
FLASH: I can vibrate at 80 zillion jiggywobbles!<br />
BATMAN: No, I can&#8217;t let you do that. Moving that fast &#8212; even for just a few minutes &#8212; could kill you, Flash.<br />
FLASH: But Batman, I &#8211;<br />
BATMAN: We&#8217;ll find another way.<br />
JOHNNY QUICK: I&#8217;ll do it.<br />
FLASH: But you heard Batman &#8212; it&#8217;ll kill you!<br />
JOHNNY QUICK: No &#8212; it *could* kill me. </p>
<p>And then Johnny Quick could give a little speech about finally doing something to help someone, blah blah. He could even throw in a cocky (but knowing) dig at the Flash about doing a better job too. Look at that &#8212; no ethical problems, kept Batman as the somewhat patronizing know-it-all, kept Flash earnest and compassionate, and redeemed Johnny Quick. It&#8217;s a completely uncomplicated scenario that took me all of five seconds of thinking.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.doomkopf.com/2010/03/18/morality-in-the-dc-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-591521</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 00:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.doomkopf.com/?p=4097#comment-591521</guid>
		<description>I'm not sure I get all the indignation over "Crisis on 2 Earths."

This is kind of a technicality, but Johnny Quick didn't actually die, he just sort of closed his eyes.  It's implied, yes, but not stated.  I also think it's worth pointing out that while Batman knew a speedster would "burn himself out" keeping a portal open to the multiverse, that's not the same thing as knowing it would kill him.

As for Owlman, he was just stuck in a situation of his own making (actually, with a bomb of his own making).  Batman didn't kill him, he just sent him somewhere where he couldn't destroy all of reality.  Again - implied/likely death is not the same thing as killing someone.

Also, I think Owlman's motives were perfectly clear - he's a nihlist.  The only difference between him and Darkseid or Thanos is his mortality, otherwise he's pretty much working from the same motivation and towards the same goal - annihilation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure I get all the indignation over &#8220;Crisis on 2 Earths.&#8221;</p>
<p>This is kind of a technicality, but Johnny Quick didn&#8217;t actually die, he just sort of closed his eyes.  It&#8217;s implied, yes, but not stated.  I also think it&#8217;s worth pointing out that while Batman knew a speedster would &#8220;burn himself out&#8221; keeping a portal open to the multiverse, that&#8217;s not the same thing as knowing it would kill him.</p>
<p>As for Owlman, he was just stuck in a situation of his own making (actually, with a bomb of his own making).  Batman didn&#8217;t kill him, he just sent him somewhere where he couldn&#8217;t destroy all of reality.  Again - implied/likely death is not the same thing as killing someone.</p>
<p>Also, I think Owlman&#8217;s motives were perfectly clear - he&#8217;s a nihlist.  The only difference between him and Darkseid or Thanos is his mortality, otherwise he&#8217;s pretty much working from the same motivation and towards the same goal - annihilation.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim Doom</title>
		<link>http://www.doomkopf.com/2010/03/18/morality-in-the-dc-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-591342</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Doom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:11:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.doomkopf.com/?p=4097#comment-591342</guid>
		<description>I'm not saying there isn't an honest argument for lethal force (though I disagree). What I'm saying is that DC has established two conflicting sets of heroic morals for its iconic characters, and that moral ambiguity is problematic when your business is selling heroes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not saying there isn&#8217;t an honest argument for lethal force (though I disagree). What I&#8217;m saying is that DC has established two conflicting sets of heroic morals for its iconic characters, and that moral ambiguity is problematic when your business is selling heroes.</p>
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		<title>By: Fin Fang Doom</title>
		<link>http://www.doomkopf.com/2010/03/18/morality-in-the-dc-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-591323</link>
		<dc:creator>Fin Fang Doom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.doomkopf.com/?p=4097#comment-591323</guid>
		<description>BTW, Invincible has been exploring the idea of the morality of killing supervillains in a comic book world for about the last two years or so, and it's been amazing.  I highly recommend it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>BTW, Invincible has been exploring the idea of the morality of killing supervillains in a comic book world for about the last two years or so, and it&#8217;s been amazing.  I highly recommend it.</p>
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		<title>By: Fin Fang Doom</title>
		<link>http://www.doomkopf.com/2010/03/18/morality-in-the-dc-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-591322</link>
		<dc:creator>Fin Fang Doom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 20:54:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.doomkopf.com/?p=4097#comment-591322</guid>
		<description>Believe it or not, I'm of the belief that it makes sense for superheroes to kill. I'm 100% against the death penalty in real life, but the world in comics operates under different rules. In real life, if some gets sent away to prison for life, they're in prison for life. In the comic book world, they'll inevitably break out and harm more innocent lives; that's just the way it works there.

Now I'm not saying goons like The Ventriloquist and Mandrill deserve to be executed instead of being sent to maximum security, but it makes sense for the more dangerous guys like the Joker, Deathstroke, Carnage, Bullseye, and yes, Prometheus.  These men kill for fun, and as soon as they get out of prison, they're going to do it again. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when.

Take, for example, when Wonder Woman killed Maxwell Lord. With a brainwashed Superman under his control, Lord was the most dangerous man on Earth.  If Wonder Woman hadn't killed Lord, Superman would have killed her, and then he would have moved onto the rest of the superhero population. Locking Lord up in prison wasn't going to do it. Sometimes murder is justified in the comic book world, it's as simple as that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Believe it or not, I&#8217;m of the belief that it makes sense for superheroes to kill. I&#8217;m 100% against the death penalty in real life, but the world in comics operates under different rules. In real life, if some gets sent away to prison for life, they&#8217;re in prison for life. In the comic book world, they&#8217;ll inevitably break out and harm more innocent lives; that&#8217;s just the way it works there.</p>
<p>Now I&#8217;m not saying goons like The Ventriloquist and Mandrill deserve to be executed instead of being sent to maximum security, but it makes sense for the more dangerous guys like the Joker, Deathstroke, Carnage, Bullseye, and yes, Prometheus.  These men kill for fun, and as soon as they get out of prison, they&#8217;re going to do it again. It&#8217;s not a matter of if, it&#8217;s a matter of when.</p>
<p>Take, for example, when Wonder Woman killed Maxwell Lord. With a brainwashed Superman under his control, Lord was the most dangerous man on Earth.  If Wonder Woman hadn&#8217;t killed Lord, Superman would have killed her, and then he would have moved onto the rest of the superhero population. Locking Lord up in prison wasn&#8217;t going to do it. Sometimes murder is justified in the comic book world, it&#8217;s as simple as that.</p>
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		<title>By: Van Jensen</title>
		<link>http://www.doomkopf.com/2010/03/18/morality-in-the-dc-universe/comment-page-1/#comment-591278</link>
		<dc:creator>Van Jensen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:27:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.doomkopf.com/?p=4097#comment-591278</guid>
		<description>I'm just reading a George Lakoff book about morality as conceptual framework. There's some interesting stuff about our concept of morality as finance, with credits and debits, and language like, "I'm going to pay you back." It's neat stuff, but it doesn't help me understand at all what DC is doing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m just reading a George Lakoff book about morality as conceptual framework. There&#8217;s some interesting stuff about our concept of morality as finance, with credits and debits, and language like, &#8220;I&#8217;m going to pay you back.&#8221; It&#8217;s neat stuff, but it doesn&#8217;t help me understand at all what DC is doing.</p>
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